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Morocco Referendum: The TV Debate

Washington  / Morocco Board News--Several Moroccan American observers and community activists debated the proposed new constitution uring a  televised debate in Washington.
At the debate, some called for a boycott others are planning to vote "yes" for the referendum.
Mr. Hajjouji Ahmad spoke about the process of producing the new constitution. " This drat is an improvement no doubt, but this package was put on the table and  we were told to vote on it in two weeks, there was essentially no debate, no chance for people with conflicting views to come to the table, and discuss and inform the voters, you want that  vote to be based on solid information..."



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Mr. Masiky a writer and a former spokesman for Amnesty International USA said "the new constitution includes some important reforms that will will improve things, particularly reforms relating to the Justice, providing that they are implemented properly"

Mr Adil Naji , an entrepreneur and community activist said " The majority of Moroccan, most political parties have accepted the new constitution, they want to move forward, they regard this as the foundation for more reforms in the future".

The program was produced by Said Zairi and Hosted by Mostapha Saout, the editor of Morocco Board News. The program will be broadcast on line, on Morocco Board TV and distributed on Youtube.

 

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Comments (51)  

 
CJB
0 #1 The New ConstitutionCJB 2011-06-29 10:37
I will VOTE YES, for Democracy in Morocco, for equality with Moroccan women and Moroccan men, for power to the governement and the new position of president of the government, for the new stracture of the parliament and for the advanced regionalization.

No difference between Arabic and Tamazight. No difference between muslim sects. No difference between a muslim a christian and jew under the law. No difference between the poor and the rich in front of an independent judge. This is the Morocco of the future. You can live in Tangier or Laguira and your region might have some different rules or regulations but you're an equal Moroccan citizen under the new constitution.

Morocco Rocks the VOTE.
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MOUMNI
0 #2 COMMENT_TITLE_R E Morocco Referendum: The TV DebateMOUMNI 2011-06-29 11:43
SORRY BUT I VOTE "NO"
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Morcelli
0 #3 COMMENT_TITLE_R E Morocco Referendum: The TV DebateMorcelli 2011-06-29 12:02
I did watch the entire debate. Goof to hear my compatriot debating an issue that is so dear to many of us.
Hassan, I have to say that you look better than the picture in the front page of MB.
Mr hajjouji ( sorry about the spelling), you make sens to me and you spoke my mind.
You said the way I see it and I thank you for that.
Hassan, you need to make up you mind , you are either for or against this thing, you seem that you do not know where you stand. You said, yes everyone, political parties, government , etc is corrupt but we should vote yes, this does not look good on you as someone i enjoy reading and appreciate how articulate and knowledgeable of everything Moroccan.
Mr Naji, you and Mr. chtaini can for a great team. You have an issue with feb 20 who started it all. without them , we would be watching RTM telling us how wonderful the king is. It is you opinion and i respectfully disagree with your statements because asking the feb 20 to form their own party is not an easy task and you know that.
The audience was great. The good fellas had great questions or comments, I especially agree with the fella who said that we should all work to better our country, we cannot wait for others to do it for us. I say Amen to that.
If we would have such debates in Morocco where everyone is free to say what they think is the right remedy to the problems facing Morocco, we would be in a better place.

Mr. Mustapha, thanks for making this debate possible. It would have been nice if you get some pastries with mint tea next debate.
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Achlah is Back
0 #4 If it cost money to have INDEPENDENT political debate like this one, I am willing to give generousely Achlah is Back 2011-06-29 13:25
Mr. Saout,
I have been following many debate on various TV channels, including the Moroccan channels, regarding this topic and I haven't heard a debate as great, civilized and informative. I commend you for bringing new faces and articulate speakers like Mr Adil Hajiwi and Mr Masiki. You had to add a third wheel to the panel , but that is OK because he found his match in the audience ,Mr Aliwin. hhhh
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Chtaini
0 #5 COMMENT_TITLE_R E Morocco Referendum: The TV DebateChtaini 2011-06-29 17:06
Chtaini said:

@Morcelli

I have the feeling that Morcelli was going to be the first one to jump the gun and as usual be first to post his comment. This why, I am beginning to dismiss his reaction as baseless. He does not take the time to digest what he hears and reads so that he can react accordingly. He strikes me as member of what I call the 5 F club: Fast, Fake, Flake, Freak, Fanatic. The principles of this club are “defame those who disagree with you no matter what” and “my way or the highway”.
Hassan, do not mind Morcelli’s statement I am used to them. He even meddles with you right to think what you want to think. I have known you since you were a student of mine at the University I was teaching, I never thought of you as being a Hassan who “does not know where he stands.” I always encouraged by you courage and outspoken personality. You always said it as you see it. So do not mind Morcelli’s attack. I am used to that. Naturally to him, “it does not look good on you as someone I enjoy” because you said we should vote Yes. Who is this Morcelli joker to be talking to you, to Si Naji and me as he does? Who cares about what he enjoys or does not enjoy.
Si Naji, I will be more than happy to be on your team. Si Mostapha, you better have cookies and mint tea for the next debate, if not Morcelli will have a fit. If this is the type of guy who heads the group of trouble makers, please do not wonder how the rest is. As I said in one of my comment: They are about 50 of them and they terrorize by their insult and character assassination through their comments on anyone who disagrees with them using freedom of speech as a protective tool. Now you know what I am going through with these guys when I try to express my views. Hassan you know me very well. I can take it. As we say “Kashabti Wassaa”.
Morcelli as I said in another comment is the type of person that I have seen in my life experience. He is always first to answer by jumping the gun. Most of the time he misses the point. He has certain words that he repeats all the time such “Status quo”. He is insulting without realizing it. His statement and comments are always contradictory but appear to him as being logical. He takes side without knowing why. He can be dangerous if he can get his hand on power. His main principle is “my way or the highway”. He would love to retract from the position he puts himself in, but by putting himself as the leader of the pack, he cannot retract because of the public image he made out of himself in the eyes of the trouble makers. He has no other alternative because of all his public gestures and statements to have attention focused on him. I learned a long time ago that people like him always find a way out. His way out is the secret ballot voting, if he will vote, he may say vote ‘No” and vote “Yes”.
Now you know my impression of the leader of the pack. If I am a paid propagandist, Mr. Morcelli is a political charlatan. I tried to befriend him but he is not worth it.
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People
0 #6 ChokranPeople 2011-06-29 18:22
First glad to see a televised debate of Moroccan "compats" in the US other than me and the gang at Starbucks debating the issue....
Mr Hajouji clearly summed it up for me, and i have to thank god that a fellow Moroccan benefited from living in a democratic system and think democratically, unlike Mr Naji who denies the others the right to think differently.

As for the proposed constitution, if any one knows how to read and comprehend Arabic can clearly tell you that the new constitution has nothing new other then the word NEW in the title. And besides, did any of you asked himself, if god forbid the king and the entire royal family happened to die all at once(earhtquake , "botagaz",plot. ..) what will happen to Morocco? Huummmmm! tough one? or they are immune from all of that?
Once again, democracy i see as this "government from the people by the people to the people" there's no place for family affair, or this person is above the law. We are all equal in front of Allah ila bi takwa. For god's sake 2011, and we still see people coming out with pictures of the king and banners that say YES in mid day on a week day in a huge tent surrounded with SHIKHAT, who pays for all of that? people's money waisted on propaganda? really in a democratic country that it's leader proposed a constitution and asked his people to vote with yes for it, and financed its campaign?...the se millions of dirhams used for propaganda could've been used wisely to better the lives of those uneducated people of Morocco.
As for me, i say allahoma ina hada monkar.
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Moroccan Patriot
0 #7 No Freedom of expression - Packaging is all wrongMoroccan Patriot 2011-06-29 19:32
It is impossible for anyone who thinks critically to vote Yes in for the draft constitution.

The Moroccan television, radio and print media have been bombarded over the last week with talk about the referendum... unfortunately, the only opinion that has been allowed to be voiced has been for those supporting the new constitution. No air time has been given to those who do not support it. Based simply upon this fact, any rational person should boycott or vote no.

The problem with voting no is that it gives legitimacy to the sharades the makhzan has been playing with the Moroccan people for so long. The Makhzin does not deserve legitimacy as they do not behave with integrity, nor do they show any real respect to the Moroccan people.

There are people everywhere wearing shirts that have "yes" written on them... imagine wearing a white t-shirt with the word, "no" on it and stepping out in public... it would be a short matter of time before you were asked for your carte national, beaten and/or arrested by the Makhzini goons ... how can you have a legitimate vote in this kind of climate of fear and intimidation.

Finally, the new draft constitution has some good idea's in it... the Amazight thing is a good idea... equality, etc.... Why not break these up? Why not allow the Moroccan people to individually approve or disaprove of each item in the draft constitution... including the "commander of the faithful" line?

If this were allowed, then EVERYONE would participate... provided of course, there were outside obsrvers to the counting of the votes... you can't trust the Makhzan.
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ben mohamerd
0 #8 COMMENT_TITLE_R E Morocco Referendum: The TV Debateben mohamerd 2011-06-29 21:19
Mr Saout

Thank you and the the Moroccoboard team for organising the above debat.

The evil will not succed because of people like like brothers Hajjouji/Masiky/Naji

"The ony thing necessary for the triumph of evil is for good men to do nothing"
[Edmund Burke]


















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Debate
0 #9 Watch till the endDebate 2011-06-29 21:35
Please take the tlme to watch the debate in its ENTIRETY before posting your comment.
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Chtaini
0 #10 COMMENT_TITLE_R E Morocco Referendum: The TV DebateChtaini 2011-06-29 23:17
Chtaini Said

@Morocco Board

I have watched the debate presentation by Morocco Board. Congratulations to MB for this first political debate, I hope they will be more to come. I am willing to give my share to the funding of such a program so that we can have this type of a discourse on many other issues relevant to Morocco’s development may it be political, economic, social, or cultural.
Si Hassan, do not mind Morcelli’s statements I am used to them. Thank you for the “Yes” encouragement vote. You always knew where to stand. Si Naji I do not mind being with you on the same team. As to Si Hajjouji, you did a good job presenting your view, although this is the time for a “yes” vote, but then again you are entitled to your own views. Again congratulations to all of you
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Informed voter.
+1 #11 Remind me what this is about and why now?Informed voter. 2011-06-29 23:35
Simply put:

Why now? Voting of the new constitution is set to start tomorrow, July 1st .
Purpose of the debate? Help potential voters make educated decision by presenting multiple views on the subject.

Moroccoboard is clearly responding to the deafening void that is left behind the decision (by Al-Makhzan) to keep the new constitution outside of public debate.

Can I imagine these sorts of open debates taking place openly and without censorship on Moroccan TV?

The answer is no, of course, no. Why is that?

Context: the new constitution is introduced to the Moroccan people as an INTIGRAL part of the king’s speech. As such, both the existing and new constitution prohibits (as a matter of law) any discussion of its content.

The king’s speech, after all, is codified to be synonymous to a divine revelation.

Now, why the need for such an elaborate scheme to discourage debate?

If the constitution becomes a matter of national debate, the king and his powers will be very difficult to justify to the people.

The rest are details.
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James
0 #12 friendJames 2011-06-29 23:48
I don't know why you are so complaining about the Constitution that's offered by the King, knowing that the ministers never help anybody, so why don't you just say Yes to the King and NO to the Prime minister and others who are always corrupting and taking our prperties. I think you are becoming so crazy, is you go on the wind of the 20th february, those people have no kind of human responsibilitie s, all they want is to eliminate the King and then the Kingdom will become a Republican. for, I know as you do, this is not in our benefit, then a great uprising will be hold by those anti-kingdom.
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Reda . A
0 #13 Very proud of the civilized debate at Morocco BoardReda . A 2011-06-30 00:18
Congratulation to Morocco board and to all of the participants. Mr. Souat, Naji, Hajjouji and Masiki you all have done a great job presenting your views and how debate should be; civilized and well organized
I very much enjoyed watching the debate which reflects a high level of intellectualism . It was informal and constructive. Though Mr. Hajouji was focused on the process he did not present a clear vision or answer on how he will vote. I agree with the analysis if Mr. Naji that it was thanks to the movement of 20 Feb that these proposed changes are on the table .
and now the movement should take another role and organize itself and form a political party or just organize formally to participate in the process of change for better for Moroccans. As to Mr. Maski, I agree with you that the government made a mistake in the way it handled the case or Rachid Nini and he should be released from jAIL ASAP
again congratulation to all of you and I am proud to see Moroccan like al of you discussing vital issue to our community
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HASNAA
0 #14 COMMENT_TITLE_R E Morocco Referendum: The TV DebateHASNAA 2011-06-30 00:24
I WILL VOTE NO
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Moroccan Patriot
0 #15 There is NO New Constitution - just an old constitution with different wordingMoroccan Patriot 2011-06-30 02:53
If you want to be respected you must demand respect. The only logical recourse to this referendum is Boycott. Until the Moroccan government begins to treat its people with respect, a clear message must be sent. Boycott and Peaceful demonstration.

.
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Morcelli
0 #16 COMMENT_TITLE_R E Morocco Referendum: The TV DebateMorcelli 2011-06-30 03:28
The issue here is not voting yes or no, the issue is what we are voting on. Everyone other than few grumpy old men agree that we are supposed to vote on a constitution composed by the king and for the king and the elite surrounding him.

I started to think that those who will vote yes don't come back a year from now and start vandalizing the streets of Morocco and asking for the king's head. You had your chance, you made your choice, now live with it. This is not a game, it's vote and a vote as Mr. hajjouji mentioned, is priceless, if the majority chose to sell it for few dirhams and a bus ride to the polling boots, then good luck to them, just don't send your illiterate kids 5 years from now to burn the school that they have never attended.










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man en blanc
0 #17 Civilized debate in America, Goons on the rampage in Morocco.man en blanc 2011-06-30 03:49
I echo the sentiment of the many enlightened participants of this board. If the regime had any confidence in the legitimacy of the "new" constitution, why present only ONE side of the argument on the Moroccan TV? Why the intimidation? why the bullying from some supporters on this very board? And you know who you are!
As they say, you can take the Moroccan out of the makhzen, but you can't take the makhzen out of (some) Moroccans.
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Samira M.
0 #18 English Teaher in usaSamira M. 2011-06-30 04:42
Hi,
To watch this debate, I can say: there was no result, each person/member said what he thinks. But the bottom line is:the new constitution should work well it means the government should do there job to fight corruption in the 1st place.
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Morcelli
0 #19 COMMENT_TITLE_R E Morocco Referendum: The TV DebateMorcelli 2011-06-30 04:59
what worries me the most is that th majority of people talk about votes as if their vote will count, They keep forgetting that that we are talking about Morocco where they herd illiterate men and women and ask them what to vote on, and in return they will get some goodies for themselves and for their children out of their hassle. We are talking about a system that bow to the king, a king who will never be held responsible for anything he does or does not. Will anyone in the Moroccan system of governance stand up to the king?
If your answer is yes, then you are out of touch my friend. We are talking about a cosmetic constitution that the king came up with to cement his ever lasting rule and in no time, every major political party said "Yes sidna, we support you and we will ask our herd to support you and even wield a machete to go after those who are against you".
It really does not matter if you vote or don't vote, the results are already there. I can guarantee you that they will be more than 80% if not 90 % of yes, if they are less than 80%, i will shut up and applaud you. Please do us favor don't call this a referendum, call it predetermined referendum.
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hbibi
0 #20 entrepreneurhbibi 2011-06-30 05:19
between me and you this constution is another step in the moroccan future and you can not expect a king to give up evrtthing once ,inch allah in the future there will be another consitution with other changes .
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Morokkan
0 #21 Great Job !!Morokkan 2011-06-30 06:21
First thanks to MB for this video, i think it was a balanced panel. Well one exception.. Mr Naji, please be carefull on how you use us,"us " Mgharba in a democraty means YOU.
Great job by Mr Hajjouji!!! we share comon ground.
Mr Massiki i have a lot of respect for you, however you stayed policaly correct... i wish you opened up a little more.
Admin....why block my posts? democracy...rea lly?? comon ...we are over that!!!
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man en blanc
0 #22 Delaying the Inevitable!man en blanc 2011-06-30 09:52
What will our dear "inviolable" King do tomorrow? Say : Phew! that was close? He would. That is if we lived in a perfect world.
No. Tomorrow things will be back to normal, normal as the "inviolable one" defines normal. Who cares if it's 2011? Stagnation is luxury right now. How about a slow journey into backwardness with a paper called the new CONstitution, the will of "the people" to validate the medieval concept of Sheiks, fiefdoms and serfdoms!

SHAME! SHAME! SHAME!

But wait! Don't sell the oppressed populace short yet! The so-called new CONstitution, as everyone who is not benefiting from the makhzen knows, is just a rehash of the previous one, which was a rehash of the one from the mid-seventies, which, nauseatingly, set the stage for decades of abuse, gulags and your run-of-the mill third-world dictatorship shenanigans!

Enjoy it for now! Remember : People are very impatient right now! And unlike Saudi Arabia, you can't bribe everyone.
As I said : delaying the inevitable.
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Mohamed Belkhayat
0 #23 Mr.Mohamed Belkhayat 2011-06-30 11:21
Dear MB,
I congratulate you on this event. You have given stage to those who matter, the regular people. I wish this was done earlier, but I know it is not easy. The wonderful thing about this event is that people were expressing themselves as they saw fit. I enjoyed listening to all of your guests. I wish I heard more about the content of the constitution. the fact that the governors are still appointed instead of elected, the fact that there are 180 articles, the fact that there is no accountability for the institution of the monarchy, the fact that there is no sovereignty immunity in Islam and on and on..I especially enjoyed Mr. Lahjouji's comment that the government should take the youth more seriously. Also, I had some trouble with the sound system, the volume seemed low. I hope this improves. thanks
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Morcelli
0 #24 COMMENT_TITLE_R E Morocco Referendum: The TV DebateMorcelli 2011-06-30 11:59
man en blanc,
Absolutely, those who bother to vote or dragged to go vote, will certainly be the one crying foul in a year or two from now. They will forget that they were the one who voted and asserted the "validity" of this CONstitution, and we will be the one saying "See? See? I told you so".
Many people do not understand how bad is the situation in Morocco, couple of years or drought and a couple of terrorist bombing and Morocco will turn into Bangladesh.
You take tourism and agriculture, you will end up with the elite moving they $$$ to France and the poor will eat each other alive and the king will come up with another Scam CONstitution with cheers for the so called political parties.
What can I say ? I guess Long Live The King! (LLTK)



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Jazmine
0 #25 We don't need more legislation or lawsJazmine 2011-06-30 21:51
Firstly I agree with Morcelli comment that the majority of Moroccan are illiterate especially women, who were told to vote YES rather than ask any questions....I m Berber and majority of the oppressed Berbers in the villages were told that this new legislation encourages Berber language so you should vote YES...how? when? and where?; no questions asked!
Anyway I m glad that finally we are treated as human beings with own rights in our land as first inhabitants of North Africa...we finally have not just our radio channel, but also our TV channel, our books, poems, we can speak it freely and even write it now.
Ok the change has come late....as we were oppressed for decades under the previous dictatorship... .it should have come under the previous king..... but generally we do not need more laws...we have plenty...on paper ONLY!. Does anyone respect those laws in Morocco, especially the opulent, the educated and those surrounding the king.....NO! the laws were there only for the poor.
I am not againt this referendum but I think we need to respect, implement those legislations and laws that already existed and violated..... this once again will only be INK ON PAPER!
On personal note: I like Mustapha Saout!
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Aziz El Alami
0 #26 COMMENT_TITLE_R E Morocco Referendum: The TV DebateAziz El Alami 2011-06-30 22:58
I just casted my vote at the Moroccan Consulate on 40th Street & 5th Avenue in NY… The staff was courteous and pleasant. The entire transaction took less than 5 minutes – We were given a Yes and a No ballots and we were asked to go behind a curtain for privacy purposes… The only thing I didn’t understand is that they put a tiny little dot with a purple felt pen on our fingers??? Pointless but I allowed it and just washed it off afterwards… Now, if only they served some mint tea and Moroccan Cookies like my friend Morcelli suggested :-))))
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ben mohamerd
0 #27 COMMENT_TITLE_R E Morocco Referendum: The TV Debateben mohamerd 2011-07-01 01:10
@Jazmine
“I m glad that finally we are treated as human beings with own rights in our land as first inhabitants of North Africa...we finally have not just our radio channel, but also our TV channel, our books, poems, we can speak it freely and even write it now.”
This CONthing was drafted with the Amazigh voters in mind
Also, as an amazigh I’m glad. However the battle for real democracy for ALL Moroccans is just beginning.
It will not take over 50years to get there, just watch the above brothers in this debate and you will know what I mean. They and many like them are our new leaders. No more Naciri’s!
Number one, what we want for ALL Moroccans is a better education system for ALL, as it makes people impossible to be enslaved.
Illis
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Morcelli
0 #28 COMMENT_TITLE_R E Morocco Referendum: The TV DebateMorcelli 2011-07-01 05:03 Quote | Report
 
 
Boabid
0 #29 COMMENT_TITLE_R E Morocco Referendum: The TV DebateBoabid 2011-07-01 09:51
I was hoping 80-90% igot 98%. Perfecto. This what I call democracy my friends.
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Morcelli
0 #30 COMMENT_TITLE_R E Morocco Referendum: The TV DebateMorcelli 2011-07-01 13:35
98% or 99% which is a ridiculous number of yes tells me that the king got his yes.
The majority of Moroccans illiterate or not love their king, everyone in my family voted yes, and when I asked "why is that?", they did not say that this new constitution will improve the life of Moroccans, they told me , the king is part of us and his father was part of us, and he wanted us to vote yes, so we did. whatever the king ask us, we will do it 3la ras wal 3ayn.
This sums it for me, Moroccans do not look at this constitution as something that will make it or break it for them, they see it that if they vote yes, that shows their loyalty to the Alaouite dynasty who had ruled Morocco for many centuries. Even in this board, some of the posters have been accused of being traitors because they chose to boycott or vote no.
Moroccans see the king as someone who unites Morocco and that's why they turn the blind eye when his surrounding elite steal and steal again. Moroccans see this as a price they have to pay in order for Morocco to stay united between Arabs, Berbers, and other minorities.
The big question is for how long Moroccans will look the other side and let the elite devour their resources? Time will will tell. For now, I say Congrats to those who votes yes, and those who voted yes, and those who did not bother to vote and went to the beach instead.
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Alil
0 #31 COMMENT_TITLE_R E Morocco Referendum: The TV DebateAlil 2011-07-01 15:21
98% in favor of the constitution. It seem we can stuff the credibility of the king in the coffin.

I liked this debate, it was great thanks for organizing it. One small comment (hopefully constructive): it was clear to me that Mr Hajouji's intellectual power and depth is above the two other speakers. Yet, he was interupted very often not only by the moderator but also by the other participants (including the public). I think the debate would have been more succesful if Mr Hajouji was given more time and more flexibility to express himself. Perhaps two speakers should be enough. The next one should have Mr Hajouji and perhaps someone of his caliber in the pro makhzen side (hard to find). Overall, it is a great idea. Many thanks.
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usexpat living in the maghreb
0 #32 memebers of the discussion panelusexpat living in the maghreb 2011-07-02 01:42
I have one thought/questio n to all of the Moroccan-Americ an panelists you never mentioned. Why are you all living/working in the USA and not in Morocco?
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Moroccan Student
0 #33 COMMENT_TITLE_R E Morocco Referendum: The TV DebateMoroccan Student 2011-07-02 04:10
Interesting debate, even though the topic can not be covered in one or two hours...

Mr Hajjouji is a smart man, but he was defending the wrong position. His main (or only argument) was the process through which the new draft was brought, he kept milking it for the whole hour.

Yet, Mr Hajjouji didn't bother to explain his real problem with the process. Was it illegal or anti-constituti onal for the king to appoint the commission? or was it unethical? in which case one needs to ask why is it unethical? does he think that the members were not up to the task? does he think that they had some conflicts of interest? they should have consulted with more associations? even those like the 20 February who refused to meet them?

I get it that we shouldn't "downplay" the process part, but for god sake, don't bore us with it....
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Jamal Mouhtadi
0 #34 Happy 4th of July and Happy 1st of July to all of youJamal Mouhtadi 2011-07-02 04:41
Interesting debate but not that interesting, Hajjouji used mostly the Democratic political party slogan , he sees the change in the Moroccan constitution as “more of the same” Chris Mattew CNBC slogan, affordable housing, free health care for everyone Fareed Zakaria CNN slogan, etc…..I have also noticed that no one has talked about the cost of the change and who’s paying for it. In my point of view a YES vote , is a vote on the right direction, change does take time, transition of powers do not happen over night or because Hajjouji did read New York Times. I think Moroccans had more than enough time to learn about the new constitution, they have been offered 2 weeks, not like Nancy Polisi that did ask the Americans to vote for healthcare bill to find out what is in it, I wish I could know what did Hajjouji think about that. Remarks, I wish Morocco Board had invited Mr Chtaini, Morcelli, Man en blanc, El Alami, may be the debate would have been more interesting and instructive.
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aes
0 #35 The hell with the cowards.aes 2011-07-02 17:42
The 20 Fifi does not represent much. That is why they chose to boycott. But they were badly deafeated cause millions of Moroccans from all walks of lige have voted YES to their
beloved king. End of Story. Bye Bye 20 Fifi. See you.

Now we need to move on and start executing the new constitution. Hard works awaits
us. We got elections coming up and that this where we need to see some great improvments.
The nihilists are a bunch of cowards with no base. They can be ignored and if they get
too excited I recommend Zarwata.

The majority has spoken. The majority said no to 20 Fifi and YES to M6. May God
save the king.
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Rod
0 #36 COMMENT_TITLE_R E Morocco Referendum: The TV DebateRod 2011-07-03 00:09
Crashing defeat to the Moroccan talibans ( Al Adl) and the bolchevists!!!( Annahj-PSU).
I'm really surprised that they were able to get 1.5% of the votes, my calculations prior to the vote had them at 0.005% based on the level of participation in their last two demonstrations.
Today they planned more demonstrations and I expect a very low turnout of 5 to 6 thousands in Casablanca which will be in line with their political weight...5k protesters / 5 millions casaouis.
Numbers don't lie...February 20th folks, you have a great chance to prove me wrong with a huge turnout....I doubt you can muster the numbers because your arguments are hollow.
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chtaini
0 #37 COMMENT_TITLE_R E Morocco Referendum: The TV Debatechtaini 2011-07-03 03:45
Chtaini said

I drove to Los Angeles from San Francisco to vote. In the elevator to the third floor where the voting rooms where located, I struck up a conversation with a gentleman who was in his 60s and who looked Moroccan. I asked where he was from and he responded Casablanca. He turned ou to be from the same housing block I lived in where I was young. We were 4 doors a part. When I mentioned my name he hugged me and said with his eyes watering. My father was the man who picked and carried your mother when she was shot in 1953 by the French Colonial forces during the riots. I never forgot that scene because I went to Hospital Sowfi with my mother. I said to him are you the son of Ba Omar? He said yes. I found out that he was a leader of a political party in Morocco, a former member of the Moroccan and he is now a producer and he lives in Hollywood. I was so happy about this encounter but happier for the circumstances which brought me to Los Angeles to vote “Yes” for the Referendum. My new found friend also voted “Yes” of course.

I was also pleased to hear on NPR Radio half hour after my vote that the overmhelming majority of the Moroccan people representing 98% voted “Yes” for the referendum in Morocco. To the “detractors” 98% of the “Yes “ voters are all paid propagandists, greema Seekers and Makhzanian, are we not? Makhzanian? Yes, since the Alouite Sultan Moulay Mohammed Ben Abdallah under whose order my ancestors Kaid El AAbadi, father of my Great grand Mother Tahra bent El Kaid el AAbadi andKaid El Jdidi father oof my great Grand Father Moussa ould el Kaid Jdidi fought against the Portuguese in the Doukkala to force them to abandon Mazagan known today as El Jadida. I am proud of my heritage and will always be proud of it. Remember it was the same Alaouite Sultan, Moulay Moammed Ben Abdallah who recognized the United States as a “Free, Independent” country. You can call me Makhzanian and I am proud of it.

Now that the election is over, you should get hold of yourselves and stop insulting, defaming, making false allegations and character assassinations. Do not be sore losers. You are not going to tell me that 98% of those who voted “Yes” are wrong and you, representing 50 negative commentators, are right. Wake up and open your eyes.

We have a lot of work to do in this beloved USA. There are 5000 Moroccans and their children who come every year as “Lottery Immigrants” and are left on their own trying to integrate the American way of life. We should be about using programs at the local, state and federal levels to facilitate the new members of the Moroccan community in the USA to succeed. The least we can do for them is to help them go through a 6 month intensive TOEFL program available at all the community colleges and universities and showing how to use the government funds available which allow them to cover the cost of enrollment in these programs. Can I have some takers on this idea? My experience with many of these Moroccan legal immigrants is that because of the lack of knowledge of the English language they are non-functional and most of the time unemployed or underemployed and they family pays the price. There is so much talk about how there is concern for the well being of the Moroccan people, yet, here are Moroccans in here with us in America for whom we can do a lot or I am to continue reading in their face the expression of “what have done for me lately?”.

I am willing to help structure with the help of Moroccans of good will who are interested in assisting the new comers to our Moroccan-Americ an Community to grow healthy and strong. The first step is to establish an intensive TOFL program that is structured for them and which would allow them to reach a proficiency which will allow them to function in the USA.

I do not have to agree with you politically to contribute to the well being of the Moroccan community in the USA. Let me hear from you soon? If you are going to be negative to kill this proposition, kindly abstain from responding?
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Rod
0 #38 COMMENT_TITLE_R E Morocco Referendum: The TV DebateRod 2011-07-03 06:06
I demand a recount...maybe not
Huge humiliation again to the February 20th mouvement, today was supposed to be an opportunity to prove to the world that the referendum was "fixed" by having a huge turnout in their planned Sunday, July 3rd protest...guess how many people showed up in Casablanca? Only about a thousand people mostly from Al Adl...so how about that recount? I'm starting to suspect that we got robbed and the real Yes vote was over 99.985% as my earlier calculations predicted...
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MESH3AL
0 #39 COMMENT_TITLE_R E Morocco Referendum: The TV DebateMESH3AL 2011-07-03 09:12
OH YES EVERYTHING IS FINE AFTER THE WELL ORGANIZED ROYAL REFERENDUM..... .............

Maroc, un triomphe en trompe-l’œil
Le projet de nouvelle Constitution proposé par le roi a été approuvé par 98% des votants vendredi. Vrai plébiscite ou pratiques d’un autre âge?

"Ces résultats sont aberrants, ils sont dignes d’une République bananière. Mais cela ne change rien pour nous, on va continuer notre lutte!" Les révolutionnaire s ne connaissent pas toujours des lendemains qui chantent. Malgré son ton offensif, Ghassan Waïl, journaliste de 28 ans membre du mouvement de contestation marocain du 20-Février, a vécu samedi matin un de ces moments qui font peut-être douter du combat qu’il mène.

Quelques heures plus tôt, le ministère de l’Intérieur avait annoncé les résultats du référendum sur la révision de la Constitution, qui s’est déroulé vendredi : plus de 98% de oui! Un véritable plébiscite pour le pouvoir, une claque pour le collectif protestataire né dans le sillage des révolutions tunisienne et égyptienne, qui jugeait le texte soumis au vote bien en deçà de ses attentes. Son appel au boycott n’a pas été entendu : le taux de participation s’est élevé à 73%. "De toute façon, on s’attendait à ce que le résultat du oui soit au-dessus des 80%", conteste Fatah el-Aidi, chômeur de 27 ans, lui aussi, membre du 20-Février. "On connaît les méthodes du ministère de l’Intérieur, qui utilise la fraude et l’achat de voix." En réponse, le Mouvement du 20-Février a prévu d’organiser dimanche des manifestations dans tout le pays. Mobilisera-t-il les foules? Depuis quelque temps déjà, leurs rassemblements sont assez clairsemés.

En attendant, c’est bien le pouvoir qui a repris la main et récupéré à son compte les velléités de changement qui se sont exprimées ces derniers mois. Les résultats du vote, qui ne seront définitifs qu’aujourd’hui, le conforte un peu plus dans sa stratégie. L’affaire était certes jouée d’avance. La majorité des partis et syndicats marocains avaient soutenu le projet constitutionnel . "Dans ma mosquée, l’imam nous avait aussi dit d’aller voter oui", explique Akram, qui, vendredi, dans le très populaire quartier Hay Mohamedi de Casablanca, trompait l’ennui, assis sur son tapis de prière, se cachant d’un soleil brûlant à l’ombre d’un porche. Ces appels n’ont pas vraiment convaincu le chômeur de 24 ans. "Je ne suis pas allé voter. Qu’est-ce que cela change pour moi?" Son copain Mourad, 28 ans, lui aussi, au chômage, n’est pas plus optimiste. Il a pourtant glissé un oui dans l’urne. "Je ne sais pas trop pourquoi", souffle-t-il, embêté. "En fait, je n’ai pas vraiment compris cette Constitution, c’était trop technique."

"Le vote s’est transformé en un plébiscite sur Mohammed VI"
"Ce référendum a été organisé de façon expresse sans grande explication", regrette Souleiman Bencheikh, rédacteur en chef de la revue historique Zamane. "Il n’y a eu que dix jours de campagne. Surtout, Mohammed VI s’est personnellement investi pour le oui. Le vote s’est finalement transformé en un plébiscite sur sa personne." Et dans un Maroc où le monarque est aussi adoré que craint, où l’analphabétism e frappe 40% de la population, l’issue du vote ne faisait pas de doute. "C’est vrai que j’ai voté oui parce que le roi l’a demandé", reconnaît Aziz, un trentenaire qui trimbalait sa grande carcasse dans la médina vendredi. "Mais en même temps, j’espère que cela va changer mon pays en mieux."

Du mieux pour le Maroc, c’est ce que promettent tous les politiques du pays qui ont soutenu la nouvelle Constitution. Le texte prévoit, il est vrai, un certain nombre de changements en terme de libertés individuelles et collectives (lire ci-contre). "Cette Constitution marque vraiment une rupture avec le passé", assure le ministre d’État Mohand Laenser. "C’est une formidable accélération de l’Histoire", s’enthousiasme Lahcen Daoudi, patron des islamistes modérés du PJD (Parti de la justice et du développement) à l’Assemblée. "Le Maroc a démontré qu’il voulait le changement dans la stabilité", soutient enfin Nizar Baraka, ministre délégué auprès du Premier ministre. "Nous avons pris un avantage indéniable sur nos voisins, qui vivent encore les secousses de leurs révolutions." Tous assurent qu’il leur sera désormais plus aisé de s’attaquer aux dossiers qui préoccupent vraiment les Marocains : le chômage, l’accès au logement, à la santé et à l’éducation.

Les plaies du Maroc ne relèvent pas de la Constitution
Mais les politiques, exécrés par la majorité de la population, parviendront-il s à assumer leurs nouvelles responsabilités ? Le roi acceptera-t-il vraiment de lâcher une partie de ses prérogatives? "Pour cela, il faut que tous les acteurs du pays acceptent d’habiter cette Constitution", prévient Nadia Bernoussi, professeur de droit constitutionnel , qui a participé à l’élaboration du nouveau texte fondamental. "Le roi, les politiques, le peuple. Cela risque de prendre du temps. La culture d’allégeance et de soumission ne va pas s’effacer du jour au lendemain. Les élites en sont imbibées." Il faudra aussi que le futur chef du gouvernement parvienne à s’imposer face à Mohammed VI : "Il devra disposer d’une majorité à l’Assemblée, ce qui est généralement loin d’être le cas", note Jean-Noël Ferrié, directeur de recherche au CNRS à Rabat. "Il lui faudra aussi une personnalité assez forte."

Sur ce dernier point, Souleimane Bencheikh est bien sombre : "En l’état actuel des choses, je ne vois pas qui est en mesure d’occuper la fonction." Pour le journaliste, le vote de vendredi ne devrait pas changer grand-chose au pays puisque les plaies qui rongent le Maroc actuel ne relèvent pas de la Constitution : népotisme, corruption ou influence des membres de l’entourage du roi, souvent présentés comme les vrais décideurs du pays. Mais en cas d’échec, gare au retour de bâton. "J’espère vraiment qu’il va y avoir du changement", explique Ahmed, un sympathisant du 20-Février, qui a pourtant voté oui vendredi. "Si ce n’est pas le cas, alors il y aura sûrement une réaction des Marocains. Une réaction radicale."
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mbt
0 #40 COMMENT_TITLE_R E Morocco Referendum: The TV Debatembt 2011-07-03 23:44
AES nobody in this world lives forever therefore to pray for M6 to be saved is pointless unless you are praying that Allah (SWT) to guide him on the right path, all we can say then may Allah (SWT) help the people of Morocco and make ease their pain from the rule of the man who is blind, blind to the suffering of the people and what is going on in his kingdom. And before you ask what is bad about Morocco, well a trip to Jamaa El Efna will tell you that you can buy drugs, pick up a girl/boy, bribe the police, watch the man in khaki take his cut from the un-license vendors, watch the man with walky-talky doing his bit, inter alia, no problem if Morocco was not a Muslim country. Don't follow the blind.
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maroquone
0 #41 Be all you can bemaroquone 2011-07-04 00:11
I have no idea what the fuss is all about? Whether you voted yes or no, doesn’t matter a bit and you have to be mentally challenged if you expected anything but the numbers given by the makhzen. Nini is still in prison and hundreds of others as well waiting for the famous royal pardon to coincide with one of the Eids. The radio and TV stations are still gov run with news covering the monarchy’s daily pilgrimages to different areas of the country amid all the problems facing Morocco make the bulk of Morocco’s news. Not one day you hear about the rampant corruption, abuse of power or unlawful use of force by the satanic. In this day and age where phone clips of corruption inundate youtube from Moroccan citizens, no TV station dares to show them! Wouldn’t you think with a free radio, TV and press we would expose these corrupt officials and put a dent into their dirty business? Let’s put their faces on every TV screen and encourage citizens to send more! Just a suggestion here, if we are truly for transparency and eager to move Morocco from the dark ages…The grip of the makhzen on the public media is not in par with today’s norms. Imagine if you sit in front of a TV in the US and see nothing but the good things the president is doing or done…all day long…every day. No mention of the deficit, real estate foreclosure problems, the jobless rates or scandal du jour (i.e. Weiner )…accountabilit y can only start with free media!
As far as the yearly quota of Moroccan immigrants coming to the US, to suggest an non profit org to help them establish and immerse in the American society is a good thing. However, to start with a 6 month TOEFL is just another bad idea as I have been accustomed to hear from the same person! Why? We all know what the TOEFL stands for and its purpose in academia as well as language mastery. Keep in mind these immigrants come from different walks of Moroccan life and are here to earn a living first and foremost to support their families. They need affordable housing, a basic crash course in American customs and laws, employment, all while enrolling in an ESL (English as a Second Language) offered at most community colleges around the country with day and evening classes available and it’s free. TOEFL is suitable for those who aspire to start or continue their education in the US. I highly recommend to the Moroccan immigrant community existing and new a road map that MUST include education.
Again the idea is good but the thought process is flawed as usual but I am glad we are addressing someone with the kaid pedigree of such long history.
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Chtaini
0 #42 COMMENT_TITLE_R E Morocco Referendum: The TV DebateChtaini 2011-07-04 01:23
Chtaini said

What my grand parents did as Makhzen was done under the leadership of Sultan Mohammed Ben Abdallah and when they forced the Portuguese to abandon Mazagan, known today as El Jadida. We all know what King Mohammed V, the Makhzen and the Moroccan people did to regain independence from the French. His Majesty King Mohammed VI, the Makhzen and the Moroccan people are in sync as to how to get Morocco through a very difficult era into a promising future. Nor you or anyone who thinks like you is going to be capable to do that. The Moroccan people have shown through their massive vote of a “Yes” that they are behind their King. I can see that you cannot believe your eyes nor can all those who are blind to the reality that Morocco is on the move on the democratic track. Join in now and contribute constructively, if not you are going to be left behind with all the other like you who are too misguided to join in with us.
Naturally, all the arguments imaginable are going to come pouring about the crushing result represented by the “YES” vote. It was predictable not because of the reasons you and the other like you hold on to because you all cannot digest the People’s victory in support of their King, but because the reasons that show that you all omit and do not understand the pact between the Moroccan People and their King. The pact between the Moroccan people and their King has always produced an unquestionable consensual support of their King’s propositions. There is not a single election which did not produce between 90 to 98.5 % in support of the King’s requests of the people which have been put into a referendum. Any arguments you and the other like you can come up with have no foundation.
Naturally once again, because you live in a democratic Kingdom, you can write video-tape, protest, scream, and manifest, criticize and propagandize as long as you want and as long as you do it while respecting the right of the majority which disagrees with you all. This is what is asked of you. In a democratic process, the losers who experience such crushing defeats at the voting polls have always cried wolf and have always attacked the winners of cheating and manipulating and rigging the votes. This is the standard reaction of the losers anywhere where a scenario similar to the unforgettable July first 2011 showing such historical fair and square defeat of people like you takes place. Please, do not feel bad about losing and do not be a sore loser to the point where you may take the wrong track and attempt to impose the tyranny of the losing minority, this attitude is undemocratic, You are entitled to express yourselves as you please but do not create disorder by the designed purpose of harming the Moroccan economy. This attitude will be intolerable. You must do as losers who are democratic do in a democratic process and that is retreat and begin to think why you really got crushed in spite of what you used as tactic so far. Evaluate with your group why you lost and do not mislead yourself and others by accentuating reasons for losing which you cannot prove such as rigging, manipulation and all the language of defeat. You all claim to have the right way for Morocco’s future! The Moroccan people by their “YES” vote have said “NO” to your way. I suggest that you pick the best issues of your way and participate through the democratic process in Morocco. The Moroccan People and their King would welcome constructive input which contributes to Morocco’s development. Please do not stick to the slogan we heard since the debate began on the referendum and which is still roaming around even after the crushing defeat “my way or the highway”. Guess what? If you cannot accept the will of the Moroccan people as expressed in the referendum election of July first 2001, your way will take you to the highway with your misguided group while the rest of us, the Moroccan people, His Majesty King Mohammed VI and the Makhzen to maintain law and order will be on the democratic train on their way to the stations of justice, equality and prosperity for the Moroccan People and the Kingdom of Morocco. If some of you for political self interest maximization want join us on the ride, we will welcome you as long as you do not behave as trouble makers.
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Chtaini
0 #43 COMMENT_TITLE_R E Morocco Referendum: The TV DebateChtaini 2011-07-04 02:47
Chtaini said

You first paragraph which starts with “I have no Idea” and ends with “free media” is the same jargon you have been using in your past comments so I will not address it.
I definitely will address the ‘Moroccan Lottery Immigrants” and what the TOEFL will do for them and why I suggested such mechanism to get them on board in their attempt to integrate the US society.

First of all I adviced dozens of Moroccans on what is the best way to integrate adequately the “American Society” which we have adopted as our own. Many who listened and followed my advice have become highly successful in America and in Morocco. I just do not shoot of the mouth when it comes to helping others succeed. I do not need their testimony to prove that to you. We are now talking about what is the best way to first equip the targeted Moroccan Lottery Immigrants learn how to communicate in order to survive and them succeed. Of course they can attend the Americanization Public Center where they can spend 6 to 8 hours a week learning English. It takes a long time for those who chose this path to be able to communicate in English with the American people. I have given a lot of thought to this issue. When I decided to assist young Moroccan graduates from hospitality schools and institute in Morocco one of the most important requirement to be selected to participate in the program and come to the US as a trainee was the knowledge of English with a 500 points mark of the old TOEFL system. I administered to them a mock TOEFL to evaluate their English knowledge level and they took it from their. After 4 months, I administered another (TOEFL Blanc) and many of the candidate scored in the 500 points. Those who did were selected. Most of them got their US visa. They were about little over a 100 from all different public and private hospitality schools and institutes in Morocco. I made sure to meet several of them at their airports of arrival and took them to the hotel where they were going to continue their training and got them to see the apartment where they will live and drove them to get utensils, sheets, towels at liquidation outlets. I have done that so many times in different part of the USA where these young Moroccan women and men were going to be established. So I know about housing rental and the rest. But this is not the aim of the TOEFL issue. These immigrants are permanent residents and are entitled to participate in certain programs. One such program if they enroll in TOEFL program which will not only insure them in an intensive manner to learn the English language but to speak it-SPEAK IT, is that they can benefit from government funds for that purpose and financial aid and student loans in the Community Colleges and Universities where they will matriculate. We can negotiate with these institutions to tailor make TOEFL programs commensurate with the needs of our Moroccan permanent residents to include instruction on American law, American History etc.. as part of the negotiated curriculum for the TOEFL program for our group.

I see that you are very much misinformed about who are those who are selected for the Lottery Immigrants slots. Higher education of the candidate is a primary importance. Certain professions are given more importance. These people are here to practice what they know best and that is the skill they acquired in Morocco through their education and job experiences which are very much needed here. If they knew French and they were given a chance to go to France they will start working (short of discrimination) at their skill and occupation levels. What they need to do here as far as I am concerned and based on my experience is learn English in the most intensive way possible to be able to communicate and get employment commensurate with their skill and occupation levels and provide adequately for their families as soon as possible. A negotiated intensive TOEFL program will make that happen.
In my life experience in academia, I had acquired a lot of knowledge about English as Second language teaching and about TOEFL exam preparation. As matter of act both my wife and I have done these things and have shown success. I do not believe that it is a “bad idea’ as you say. In my experience, we have had Moroccan pass the Toefl after between 4 to 6 months studies. The knowledge of English is immediate and necessary, the Americanization process and the rest which we knew is available is a cumulative process. I am amazed and surprised by your attacks again. I did mention in my comment the following request “If you are going to be negative to kill this proposition, kindly abstain from responding? You responded, but destructively. But I am glad you did. It would be great if you could put in your time free and I put mine and develop a program second to none. I am not understanding why a person of you knowledge and ability does not at least communicate with me to explore what I meant, rather than attack me and the idea I propose with a barrage of unsustainable statements such as “Again the idea is good but the thought process is flawed as usual” without engaging on what do I mean by what I propose. You jumped the gun again, but since the proposition is more important than what our conflict may be, I need each other to make it happen. You still responded although negatively, we can mend the differences and do something as a community service for these future members of our Moroccan Community to make it in our humble ways a better community.

As to your “but I am glad we are addressing someone with the kaid pedigree of such long history.” I got tired being called Makhazanian and since I know my past and my family’s history and tree and since I am a proud constructive Makhzanian, I just wanted to set the record straight as my ancestors’ relationship with and profound devotion to the Alaouite Dynasty and the value of the relationship.
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Debate
0 #44 Chitan, stop hijacking …Debate 2011-07-04 03:51
Someone said already that the debate and its content is meant to fill a void -- do DON'T HIJACK AGAIN.

You are free to continue with your propaganda or should I say your “political warefare” but do spare us the “intellectual” masturbation.

Your story about your grand father, though completely unrelated to what is being discussed here – doesn’t pass muster. How can it?

Even if it did, you must realize by now that each time you mention his name with your endless slobbering over the regime and his head master, your DIRTY not just his name, but also his whole lineage and everyone who fought and died with the hope to establish a county where freedom, justice and equality are its core foundations.

Is there more to say?
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Chtaini
0 #45 COMMENT_TITLE_R E Morocco Referendum: The TV DebateChtaini 2011-07-04 05:20
Chtaini said

@maroquone

You first paragraph which starts with “I have no Idea” and ends with “free media” is the same jargon you have been using in your past comments so I will not address it.
I definitely will address the ‘Moroccan Lottery Immigrants” and what the TOEFL will do for them and why I suggested such mechanism to get them on board in their attempt to integrate the US society.

First of all I advised dozens of Moroccans on what is the best way to integrate adequately the “American Society” which we have adopted as our own. Many who listened and followed my advice have become highly successful in America and in Morocco. I just do not shoot of the mouth when it comes to helping others succeed. I do not need their testimony to prove that to you. We are now talking about what is the best way to first equip the targeted Moroccan Lottery Immigrants learn how to communicate in order to survive and them succeed. Of course they can attend the Americanization Public Center where they can spend 6 to 8 hours a week learning English. It takes a long time for those who chose this path to be able to communicate in English with the American people. I have given a lot of thought to this issue. When I decided to assist young Moroccan graduates from hospitality schools and institute in Morocco one of the most important requirement to be selected to participate in the program and come to the US as a trainee was the knowledge of English with a 500 points mark of the old TOEFL system. I administered to them a mock TOEFL to evaluate their English knowledge level and they took it from there. After 4 months, I administered another (TOEFL Blanc) and many of the candidate scored in the 500 points. Those who did were selected. Most of them got their US visa. They were about little over a 100 from all different public and private hospitality schools and institutes in Morocco. They spoke English and understood American English when they arrived. I made sure to meet several of them at their airports of arrival and took them to the hotel where they were going to continue their training and got them to see the apartments where they will live and drove them to get utensils, sheets, towels at liquidation outlets. I have done that so many times in different part of the USA where these young Moroccan women and men were going to be established. So I know about housing rental and the rest. But this is not the aim of the TOEFL issue. These immigrants are permanent residents are entitled to participate in certain programs. One such program if they enroll in TOEFL program which will not only insure them in an intensive manner to learn the English language but to speak it-SPEAK IT, is that they can benefit from government funds for that purpose and financial aid and student loans in the Community Colleges and Universities where they will matriculate. We can negotiate with these institutions to tailor make TOEFL programs commensurate with the needs of our Moroccan permanent residents to include instruction on American law, American History etc.. as part of the negotiated curriculum for the TOEFL program for our group.

I see that you are very much misinformed about who are those who are selected for the Lottery Immigrants slots. Higher education of the candidate is a primary importance. Certain professions are given more importance. These people are here to practice what they know best and that is the skill they acquired in Morocco through their education and job experiences which are very much needed here. What they need to do here as far as I am concerned and based on my experience is learn English in the most intensive way possible to be able to communicate and get employment commensurate with their skill and occupation levels and provide adequately for their families as soon as possible. A negotiated intensive TOEFL program will make that happen.
In my life experience in academia, I had acquired a lot of knowledge about English as Second language teaching and about TOEFL exam preparation. As a matter of fact both my wife and I have done these things and have shown success. I do not believe that it is a “bad idea” as you say. In my experience, we have had Moroccan pass the Toefl after between 4 to 6 months studies. The knowledge of English is immediate and necessary, the Americanization process and the rest which we knew is available is a cumulative process. I am amazed and surprised by your attacks again. I did mention in my comment the following request “If you are going to be negative to kill this proposition, kindly abstain from responding? You responded, but destructively. But I am glad you did. It would be great if you could put in your time free and I put mine and develop a program second to none. I am not understanding why a person of you knowledge and ability does not at least communicate with me to explore what I meant, rather than attack me and the idea I propose with a barrage of unsustainable statements such as “Again the idea is good but the thought process is flawed as usual” without engaging on what do I mean by what I propose. You jumped the gun again, but since the proposition is more important than what our conflict may be, We perhaps need each other to make it happen. You still responded, although negatively, we can mend the differences and do something as a community service for these future members of our Moroccan Community to make it in our humble ways a better community.

As to your “but I am glad we are addressing someone with the kaid pedigree of such long history.” I got tired being called Makhazanian and since I know my past and my family’s history and tree and since I am a proud constructive Makhzanian, I just wanted to set the record straight as my ancestors’ relationship with and profound devotion to the Alaouite Dynasty and the value of the relationship.
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Mohamed Belkhayat
0 #46 TOEFL and Green Card HoldersMohamed Belkhayat 2011-07-04 06:37
Mr Chtaini,
I salut your love for Morocco. These are interesting times indeed. My dad was thrown in Jail by the french several times in El Jadida for being part of the resistance. On another note.. please contact us through www.hmemsa.org we are doing the same thing you mentioned for TOEFL..
Also I lived in Monterey CA, and we have members in LA you can work with if your heart burns for Morocco.
thanks to MB for allowing the conversation to continue
Mohamed
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ben mohamerd
0 #47 COMMENT_TITLE_R E Morocco Referendum: The TV Debateben mohamerd 2011-07-04 16:35
Chtaini said
“... those who are selected for the Lottery Immigrants slots. Higher education of the candidate is a primary importance. Certain professions are given more importance. These people are here to practice what they know best and that is the skill they acquired in Morocco through their education and job experiences which are very much needed here.”
Mr Chtaini, they may win the lottery but the USA takes the Jackpot
My wish is for the GFC to last another 10years; this might keep those highly educated with acquired skills back home.
The fate of any country depends on its educated people. They might choose to join M6 or take sides with the youth of FEB20 to get rid of crooks that currently govern us.
Finally i thank you Mr Saout and your team for this site I just wish some brothers are more respectful to each other
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Chtaini
0 #48 COMMENT_TITLE_R E Morocco Referendum: The TV DebateChtaini 2011-07-05 02:21
Chtaini said

@Mohamed Belkhayat
TOEFL and Green Card Holders
Si Belkhayat:


I salute MHEMSA for the work it is doing for the Moroccan Community in North America and for Morocco. I will be more than happy to share my ideas with you and MHEMSA on how I see this need to channel positively the newly arrived Moroccans and their family into the USA as their new home. I was very pleased to check MHEMSA’s website. I even saw some name which I have recognized and this pleased even me more. I will get back to you via MHEMSA’s email. I wish more Moroccans who read Morocco Board can join us with their contribution to realize and execute this noble and worthwhile TOEFL action plan. I am 100% sure that we all feel the same love for our beloved Morocco and this is the foundation for our success in the activities we collectively undertake. Thank you for getting back to me on the TOEFL issue.
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Chtaini
0 #49 COMMENT_TITLE_R E Morocco Referendum: The TV DebateChtaini 2011-07-05 02:52
Chtaini said
@Debate

Yes there is more to say. I mention my forefather to establish a fact that my lineage had been “Makhzanian” for century and being called that today is not viewed by me as an insult although people like you use it as an insult. I resent and reject you assuming that by mentioning my great grand fathers that I “DIRTY” his name. it is with pride that I mention them. I also resent your attack on my name. I am sure you would not be able to call me that face to face. Furthermore, I am sure that if you are not a “DERACINE”, that you would be able to indentify those ancestors of yours who lived 300 years ago. I am sure you will be proud of them. Just as I am proud of one of my ancestors who “WAHAB RAWDAT SIDI EL BOUAFI” in El Jadida during his time so that the people can bury their loved ones. I mentioned it then and mention it now in this august forum that I Love the Monarchy and His Majesty King Mohammed VI and the Kingdom of Morocco. This love cannot be bought or sold. It has no price. I am not slobbering nor am I a propagandist. I say what I feel and believe and you ( I do not know what you are) should have the decency to respect that and spare us from your “insulting” masturbation. If you are that proud of who you are and your origin, why don’t you not hide under a false name. It shows that you have no integrity and you do not count in the context of debate. It is a shame that of all names to hide behind you used the word “Debate”.
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Hamid Mernissi
0 #50 Civility and WisdomHamid Mernissi 2011-07-05 09:04
Dear all,
after listening to the debates and reading all the comments, I couldn't help but jumping in and write these few lines. First of all, my thanks and appreciations to MB, the speakers and audience. You were all terrific. Your contributions are very much appreciated as it is informative and constructive. It also reflects a civil aura especially by those who have lived in the US and tasted the sweetness of life in a democratic system. Some I can tell have spent their vast life in it but unfortunately their thinking is still in the dark ages. Others have evolved dramatically.

At this conjunction and pivotal moment in annal of our history, we (Moroccans) have to think for the best of Morocco and its future. We all know that the world has spiritually, economically, socially and politically has changed, not only in Morocco but all over. Use of force and manipulation of Media days are over. Anybody who would think that propaganda and status-quo would survive is living in Disney Land. In Morocco particularly, the future belongs to our youth, they have spoken on Feb 20th and I believe they have been heard. The Transition will take place despite of whatever difficulties we may encounter or what the delay could be. Patience is a virtue, perseverance is a must. Morocco will forge its way towards democracy gradually hopefully. We can achieve that by solidarity and respect. The debates, discussions and opinions we are witnessing today on all levels articulated in every medium and daily life projecting more awareness and education to others are the road map to a better tomorrow. I encourage more Moroccans to be involved and engaged in dialogues among themselves. We surely will learn from one another. a healthy society is where a radical, a reformist and a visionary can all set and discuss their differences with civility. Best to all Moroccans for social justice and equal opportunities.
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toufik
0 #51 a plea to the moroccan community in the UStoufik 2011-08-16 16:10
first of happy,I have to express my warm thanks to MB for its efforts for organizing this precious discusion.my thanks are also adressed to all people who participate in this debate.Actually i am writing these words just to encourge such iniciative that means a lot for us as a Moroccan Community in the US. we need to work more on the different issues that concern our lives here in the US and of course it concerns our beloved country Morocco.As a newcomer to this country, i see unfortunatly that the role of the Moroccan community in the US still has not reached the desirable level that should this community play since it represents all Moroccans in a country such the US.It is crucial now to this community as its number is increasing steadly to be more engaged in American society.my plea is adressed to those who have been here for a long time to be organized in associations that hopefully will let the world listen to our say about the huge changes that are taking place around us and it will help the the Moroccan newcomers to understand the culture of this country and to help them integrate easily into this country.
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